Summary

• Innovation leaders in large enterprises have shown immense interest in Low-Code No-Code (LCNC) platforms to speed up their transformation projects.
• In this episode, Hans Hantson, Senior Director of Business Development, and Marketing at AgilePoint unpacks the reason why innovation managers are keen to learn about LCNC platforms and what they need to consider in order to find the right platform. Hans emphasizes governance and IT's buy-in.
• In this episode:
• 
  
  • Motivation for Innovation Managers to explore LCNC
  • Misunderstanding about Enterprise Low Code No Code
  • Challenges of evaluating Low Code No Code platforms
  • The gap in the market from the innovation manager's perspective

Key Takeaways

Transcript

Guest Introduction

Hans (00:00):

A lot of low codes to no code tools are not built for an enterprise type of company. And what I mean by this is they don't focus on release management. So they don't care on how do I move an application from a development environment towards testing, staging, or production. And I'm not talking about the technical development itself, but also what does it mean for the organization? Which approval routes are needed? Is it ready to adapt these platforms? Are the systems ready? A lot of it people at this moment are complaining about low code no code things because they are playing firemen. They don't know what the business is doing in this platform, but they have to support it.

Sharjeel (00:51):

Welcome to our next episode of this podcast “What do innovation managers want out of Low code/No code? So I'm very excited to welcome our special guest for today's episode Hans Hantson, he's AgilePoint’s Senior Director of Business Development and Marketing for the EMEA region.

I've been working with Hans for the past 12 months. I realized he has plenty of insights and knowledge about the digital transformation initiatives that large companies are undertaking in Europe and other parts of the word.

So let's start by asking Hans about his role at Agile Point and the space he works in. So welcome Hans. Could you please give a brief intro of your role at AgilePoint?

Hans (01:32):

Hi, Sharjeel; my name is Hans Hantson. I'm working with AgilePoint for almost 18 years from day one, have been mainly responsible of building the business operations inside EMEA. So this means I'm working together with local partners who help us to do implementations at our clients. And at the same time I'm working together with larger customers inside the region.

Sharjeel (01:59):

That's great. So before we move into the deeper stuff, Hans, I know you just attended and came back from an event in Utrecht Hotel in the Netherlands. So what was the event about and what was the vibe over there?

Hans (02:16):

Well, the event was mainly focusing on how enterprise companies could use and enable Low Code technology. It was quite exciting, especially it was the first in-person event back since COVID 19.

I was really looking forward to meet people back in reality, in-person. So there was a huge interest out of the market. We noticed interest from different regions and sectors. So it was not only one market like government, but really all industries which came to that event and tried to learn more about what's available on the market, what are the different vendors in the Low Code No Code space doing and how they could help these companies.

Citizen Development Governance

Sharjeel (03:05):

That's great. I know we sponsored the event and we spoke over there as well. So what were your main points? Like what was your message for the participants?

Hans (03:17):

Yeah, we are mainly focusing on enterprise companies. So it means as a company when you are adapting low code, no code technology, what does it mean? It's much more than bringing in a tool.

Secondly, it it's much more than technology. How, how do you adapt your organization to adapt a platform like low code, no code? What most of the clients are having as an issue today or where they are failing is the governance of a platform.

What we mean by this is low code, no code is not only about doing things faster and cheaper, but it's also how can it help a company surviving in these hard times? And what benefit can it get out of a tool on a digital transformation level? So how can a company work different today, but also tomorrow?

Hans (04:15):

And, and a lot of companies are just thinking, Oh, okay, it's about selecting a tool and you get started while in reality, it's more complicated than that. We all know that inside a company we have the business people and we have the IT technical people. So it's much more about how can we bridge both teams to work together? How can we create fusion teams and which issues can you have and how do you adapt on this?

So this was more the message from what we were bringing from AgilePoint is really on how do you prepare your organization, what are the pitfalls and what are the risks in order to get successful.

Sharjeel (04:56):

That's like the governance parts of Low Code, No Code.

Hans (05:03):

Correct.

Innovation Managers and Low Code No Code

Sharjeel (05:04):

Okay. So let me segue into what I've been seeing over the past few months, in fact for the past couple of years, even before the pandemic. A lot of companies are setting up dedicated innovation labs and innovation centers within large companies and even medium companies that afford to do so. So I'm really interested to know from you, what is motivating innovation managers to explore low code, no code platforms?

Hans (05:40):

Yeah, good question. I think it's coming back to the demand out of the market. We as a customer, as an end consumer, we are more demanding from a couple of years ago. Okay, we want to have faster access to information, to services, to products, but at the same time, we don't only want to have it faster, but we want it also to be more personalized to my own needs.

So when we're working with a company or a supplier, we expect that the supplier knows what we want. So, therefore companies are really looking on how can we not only improve our current way of working, but how do we get more insights in what the client wants and how fast can we adapt to it in a traditional way. We are still used to the fact that if you have a business need, you are going to describe that need on paper.

Hans (06:40):

You're going to start talking to IT or to an external partner, they're going to listen, they're going to build a solution. And, probably after one year they are coming back with something you didn't want or you didn't ask. So people are getting tired of this approach. So they want to have much more control much faster.

If you have a business idea today, I want to start doing prototyping tomorrow. Okay, I want to test things out. And if we are talking about digital transformation, it's about trial and error. You are trying something you adapt to the response of your customers or prospects or even employees. So we are focusing more on experience and I'm not talking about only customers experience or user experience, but experience in a total. And that's affecting the whole business.

As an innovation manager, you really want to act much faster than in the past. So the motivation for these people to discover how low-code no-code platforms can help and really the point is, I have a business idea today and I want to start building a potential solution this tomorrow. And if it's not fine, if it's not the right solution, fine, throw it away. This is pretty low investment, it's not that expensive and you can test something else.

Sharjeel (08:05):

Interesting. And so previously it used to be that someone from within the business would be doing that. So now that we are seeing dedicated innovation managers or transformation people being assigned to these projects, or these initiatives. So is their challenge different than a traditional person?

For instance, if someone is titled as an innovation manager or transformation manager there's an inherent pressure on them to show something in six months or four months?

Hans (08:35):

Well, to, to a level, yes. They have to read much faster than before. But at the same time I think they get more opportunities and you have more room for failure as well.

I think if you have an idea and you don't fail, it's probably not the best solution you have created. So I think that's a concept. What you see in a lot of companies, which are really focusing on transformation or digital transformation, it's about trial and error.

If we're looking on what happened in a market by example as Tesla as a company, when Elon Musk had the idea to build an electric car, he failed a number of times, but each time he failed, he adapted.

And, that's also one of the benefits, what you get in a low code, no code market solution, you can try something and if it's not working, it's not a big deal. You didn't invest months of work; you can react much faster on it. And in this way, in this trial and error way, you can find the best solution and define, okay, this is enough at this moment, let's go live with this. And you still have a room afterwards to adapt and optimize in a much faster way than before.

Sharjeel (09:51):

Interesting. And, other specific sectors that you're seeing more demand in? Healthcare financial services or it's all over the industries?

Hans (10:02):

Yeah, I think it's going across industries and that's exciting as well. I was a couple of weeks ago I was speaking to a large hospital group, healthcare group in United Kingdom. And even on that level, they are rethinking how do we treat a patient? So from the moment he is entering or she is entering the hospital until the moment she or he is filed again, how can we improve the experience for the patient?

How can we improve our internal processes and how can we optimize the fact that most of the information is across different silos of systems inside the organization. So they are not looking only from a technical point of view on how can we optimize and improve things, but at the end, how can we improve the experience in this case for a patient?

And I think that's where digital transformation is about. It's about serving your customer or your patient and how can we do things much better in a better way for a cheaper cost and more adapted, more personalized to a single need of the person sitting in front of me.

Sharjeel (11:16):

Great; that's interesting because I understand that there are other companies as well in the UK that you were in collaboration with. I remember there was a company that had the need for training a lot of its partners, employees, and I think all type of needs that they're catering through the low code platforms.

Hans (11:43):

Yeah, that's the one which is very exciting. At at this moment we see a lot of interest coming out of the financial services market. A lot of traditional banks, by example, are stuck in a traditional way of working. Customers are going to an agent or an agency, a local branch office to do their business. While today everybody is used to do, use an app on their smartphone to do their business or financial business. But that's not good enough. The lead time they had, they used to have on building this solution is too long. So, we see a lot of demand from the financial world where they say, Okay, how can we do things not only faster, but also in a different way than they were used to do?

Hans (12:33):

Most of the banks today, they are providing additional services going beyond financial services. Because it's all about creating an ideal customer, but try to please and serve this customer; and, today they have more access and more insight on who is this customer as an individual person? What is his interest? And they're trying to adapt and play on that level. And again, if you would do that in a traditional development way, it would take years before it can build. Now we are talking about days and weeks to build something.

Misunderstanding about Enterprise Low Code No Code

Sharjeel (13:09):

I understand. So what's something people seem to misunderstand about the enterprise Low-code No- Code platforms?

Hans (13:18):

Yeah, there is a lot of confusion on the market in the low code, no code space. And in fact, if you would, if you go to Google and you just type in low code, no code, you easily find 400 to 500 different vendors on the market. And that's creating confusion for people because it's not that they're doing all the same.

It's like when you want to buy a car, you can choose between brands, but even within a brand, you have different type of course, and they are all serving a specific need. Maybe you want to have a small car because you only have to drive a small distance between your house and your work, but somebody else is maybe working on a very different distance and he needs something different.

It's the same with platform. So you have a lot of solutions on the market, but they are all having a different service.

Hans (14:13):

They're having a different purpose. Ok. Some are focusing on building websites; some are building standalone applications for a smartphone or a tablet while others are focusing on the real enterprise use low code.

And that's where the focus of AgilePoint is, we really want to help clients by serving their internal needs and not only serving their internal processes, but also proposing and supporting their processes, which are running across the organization, across departments, going towards their suppliers, going towards their customers. So, we call this end-to-end automation.

You have a certain need and we are talking about a business process, not about a technical process. So a business process could be, I'm requesting a credit card. If you would analyze that process in real life, you would see that this process discovering different departments inside an organization. And that's what we trying to serve and support.

Evaluating Low Code No Code Platforms

Sharjeel (15:18):

I understand. So they find it challenging to differentiate between different platforms and which one is more suitable to their needs?

Hans (15:28):

That’s correct. And I think we still have to do a lot of work in the market by making a kind of a differentiation or kind of classification, they are all low code, no code platforms, but what are they doing? Who are they serving? What are your needs? And for this need, what is the best solution?

I don't believe in a platform which is going to serve all of them. It's like, same if you buy a car, fine, that car would be fine, but if you want to transport goods from place A to B, your car will not be good enough. You need something like a van or something else. So classification is going to create more transparency for people looking for a solution.

Because these days we still see a lot of customers and clients which are looking for a platform, they select something and after a while they have to say, okay, this was not something what I was expecting this is not doing what I want to do. So, there's still a lot of work to be happen in that market as well.

Sharjeel (16:40):

So, I guess my other question was also related to this, you did delve deeper into what problems do they come across when they get into the evaluation mode. How do these three platforms A, B, and C stack against each other?

So is it a problem for them to evaluate? Like I understand that without making the apps in the platform, it becomes difficult to kind of judge which platform would suit your needs. Is the evaluation process cumbersome or is it easy, or how do you make it easy for companies to evaluate?

Hans (17:27):

Well, the first point to make it clear is that a low code, no code platform is nothing more than a tool.

It's nothing more than a tool to support a business to reach their goal. Secondly, if we are talking about digital transformation, we are talking about three things. We are talking about people, we are talking about data, and we are talking about the glue.

The glue between these two and the between these two are processes. Everything, what we are doing in real life inside a company and even outside a company, from the moment you are waking up in the morning, you are taking a shower, you're taking breakfast, you get in the car, you drive to your work, that's already a process. So this is a crucial item. And everything which we are doing is process oriented.

Hans (18:24):

So the first criteria of a good Low-Code No-Code platform should be related around processes, because that's the core of a company.

So, what are the problems companies are facing when selecting tools is they don't even know what they want? And, this is something we have seen in 20 years-time and even longer. And, if we are now going to a small company or to the big boys companies, we all see the same issues. A lot of companies they don't know what they want. Secondly, they don't know how they are working today.

If you take a certain business process and by example, you want to understand how an internal claim process is handled. So, what are the steps taking inside a company? When a claim is coming in and you ask this to five different persons, you probably get six different answers.

Hans (19:21):

So that's a second issue, how are we working? And, partially this is caused by the fact that a lot of companies are working in what I'm calling a black box mode today.

They have old legacies or they invested a lot of money in platforms like SAP and Oracle. But how a company's operating is most of the time hidden in these applications; it's really black box, no transparency at all.

While all these elements are very crucial for the daily operation of your company, I'm not talking here about does this platform has feature A, B, or C. The first crucial criterion to select a platform is to understand how is your company working, what are the expectations you have?

And, once these items are set, then only, and that's on the only point when you can start selecting a solution or a platform, not the other way around. A lot of people are looking, Okay, here I have a complex list with features and functions I want to have, Do you have this available? That's the way around.

Sharjeel (20:37):

I kind of get your point and I remember someone other also used the word that you just used, you kind of glue, like a platform or capability to glue different systems together.

And I'll quickly give you an example. At an individual level you I will elaborate on that. At an individual level, what we are seeing is like we have Teams, we have Slack, we have, project management tools, and we have chat apps, we have WhatsApp, and the communication is happening on all channels.

Sometimes you try to put a policy around that, we are not going to communicate about work on WhatsApp, but in the end you end up communicating on WhatsApp if there's a need. I could see some kind of apps out there that are popping up, are growing it all together for us. Like, you could see all of your messages related to this project over here. So I guess I like the word you used glue together, all of your automations and even the projects that you are running.

Hans (21:55):

Yeah. The glue or the process layer is very important because that's connecting all the dots together. You see a lot of clients complaining today about the fact that you are, each time that an employee is leaving the company, they are losing information. They are losing knowledge.

That's normal. Because when you are doing a daily operation, even if you have an application bill it for that purpose. You always have different forms of communication, but the different forms of communication is nothing more than knowledge. You're sharing knowledge. You're capturing knowledge. And if that knowledge is not connected to the business purpose you are serving, then you are losing it again. So therefore, the glue is really what's binding a group putting together if that would not exist. Each company, if big or small, would not work and would fall apart.

PMI's Handbook on Citizen Development

Sharjeel (22:55):

I love this point about knowledge as well. That's pretty crucial and we do see that playing out in the real world, that knowledge is lost and there are a lot of efforts to capture and persist that knowledge. So, Hans, I understand like we could explain things and we could, you know, inspire other people to kind of go on a journey, but sometimes it's just a book or something like a more structured manner that helps us, kind of visualize the future. So I came across PMI (Project Management Institute's) book called “Citizen Development, The Handbook for Creators and Change Makers”.

So, have you come across that and if you have, how does it help innovation managers, project managers, and digital transformation leaders?

Hans (23:52):

Yeah, I have seen and read the book. It's a very useful handbook. It's written from a really practical way and gives companies insight on how do you have to prepare yourself on starting the app adaptation of Citizen Developer in normal way.

I'm going back to the pre Citizen Developer, pre Low Code, No Code development time where we all used to say, Okay, this is a need I have. You're describing it to a business analyst. They are transforming IT documents, give it to IT that start developing it. So very classic, old fashioned way of working. So the, the insight that this PMI gives you on the citizen development canvas is really, I have a business idea, and if you want to bring that idea on the table, how can I start talking about ideation of that idea, how can we transform it into a real business opportunity?

Hans (25:02):

What steps do you have to cover in between? They are talking about risk assessment; I'm not talking only about a technical risk, risk assessment, but also about a business risk assessment.

So, it's a very practical handbook, which is describing which steps do you need to take? And the fact that we are talking about Citizen Developer; it means we have a lot of business persons involved in that process.

So here as well, we need a kind of governance, we need a kind of a regulation to describe how are we going to work together, Gartner is using a term called ‘Fusion Teams’. And, Fusion Teams is the blending of business people with the right skills and IT people, so they can work together. And I think this is probably one of the best things happening in the low code, no code world, is that a lot of these platforms, and again, not all of them, but a lot of them are really focusing on empowering this boat, both teams, so they can work together in a much better way having foster results.

Hans (26:10):

I'm recommending this handbook to everyone, in fact, especially to people inside the business, but also to IT people, because it's giving you insights on which items do you have to cover when you are having a business idea, what are the risks you have, what are the pitfalls you can expect?

And, it's written in an easy language, understandable by everyone, but gives you a lot of insight. Even I'm working for 10, 30 years in the IT business, and I still learn a lot out of it. Most of them are making sense or more are really common sense approach, but it's like a refresh on what is the business goal you want to achieve and how can you come to an end result? And which steps do you have to take? So very, very practical recommended to everyone.

Sharjeel (27:04):

That's great. That gives the listeners a framework through which they could see Citizen Development. And we recommended it and we even shared within the organization AgilePoint, and it was really kind of an eye opener in terms of, hey, we've been practicing all of this and we've been doing this for clients, but, that's a nice way to put it all together.

And, for the folks who are listening there's a very good Citizen Development canvas out there by PMI that talks about project delivery, capability development, how should you think about the operating model, the organizational alignment and citizen development maturity model. You should check it out there. And definitely we are also as an organization collaborating with PMI, which kind of is really cool.

Market Gap in Low Code Platforms

Sharjeel (28:06):

I know you talked about it previously from the perspective of people who are evaluating these platforms. So, but I understand you also have a takeaway from the market.

Like you work in the market inside out and you know that there are hundreds of tools out there, as you just said and from anything to no code or low code for anything. So what are, what's the gap in the market right now? Where do you see the gap is?

Hans (28:43):

I think from my experience, the gap in most of the products, or the issue with most of the products is that first of all, a lot of products are still very technical or they are addressing the market from a technical way. That's issue one.

The second issue is, like I mentioned before, low code, no code platform or software is nothing more than a tool to help you. It's not the thing as by itself. So it means, it's helped, it has to help each organization. So I think that where the biggest issue and gap is in the adaptation of these platforms, each vendor should focus as well on how this, an organization has to adapt themselves in order to use this type of tool. That's covering things like governance, a very hot topic, a lot of low code, no code tools are not built for an enterprise type of company.

Hans (29:44):

And what I mean by this is they don't focus on the release management. So they don't care on how do I move an application from a development environment towards a testing, staging or production. I'm not talking about the technical development itself, but also what does it mean for the organization, which approval routes are needed? Is IT ready to adapt these platforms? Are the systems ready?

A lot of IT people at this moment are complaining about low-code, no code things because they are playing firemen. They don't know what the business is doing in this platform, but they have to support it.

So they at the end have to fix things which were broken or done wrong by the business. And of course, the business didn't do that on purpose because they don't know anything better. But for an IT point of view, playing a fireman is never funny or easy job because you have to try to fix things and you don't know what the purpose was.

Hans (30:45):

These are very crucial elements, what 90% of the markets today is missing and that's a pity. In fact, I think each vendor should focus on governance on release management, on adaptation inside the organization.

Because, adapting a platform like low-code, no code is also about change. And by nature, if we are all human beings by nature, we are not very open to change. We are doing a job for maybe five years or 25 years. And, if somebody else is going to say, you have to do it in a different way, or the tool is proposing you to do it in a different way, we'll get, in the beginning we will have a lot of resistance by people because they don't see the value out of it. They are used to do it, It's working for them.

Hans (31:43):

So why should I change? Bringing in a low code, no code is change for IT because they still think that if they develop things by themselves, they can do it better, maybe through yes or no, it doesn't matter.

But you get resistance out of it, but you could also resistance out of the business because we are used to work in a certain way. So why would I change? So the main gaps are not technically gaps, but are more management organizational adaptation type of issues, what we see in the market.

Customer Inspirations

Sharjeel (32:21):

That makes sense. Both parties need to come closer to each other's perspective, like both the IT and the business. I'll delve into my last point that I had on my mind because I really appreciate the way, kind of like, it really inspires me the way you work with clients.

I've seen it firsthand. So tell me about a client or a company that you were really inspired from the way they used AgilePoint in the organization. Like a company that people or a group of people who inspired you, like they are making the best use of AgilePoint. You could name them, you could not name them, but tell me something about that.

Hans (33:15):

Yeah, that's the good thing. And, also one of the drivers, which is giving us energy is always how clients are taking it up and see how they are using platforms like AgilePoint.

So that's creating inspiration not only for them, but also for AgilePoint as an organization and lead us into what do we have to do different. So, one of the important topics is always listening to our clients, listening to the way they're working today, listening to what they are envisioning in this way. So, I'm really looking for, without giving names, one of our clients is in an emergent market. And, I was surprised in when we were talking about the adaptation of low code, no code technology, the fact that they are working across different countries, but each country has the same issue.

Hans (34:23):

In this situation, I can say that the client is a financial institute, and they are saying, Okay, each process, if it's not talking about the adaptation of opening a bank account or requesting a credit card or closing a bank account, each country has the same master process. However, the local implementation is always different because you have local laws. You have rules, rules and laws, which are different. And, when we talked about the way AgilePoint is working, creating new insights for them.

When we started talking, they learned more, not only about the technology itself, but they also were starting to think outside the box. And, that was surprising; it's like creating fuel for them, and they are getting surprised by saying I can do this and this.

Hans (35:26):

And it's starting, creating new business opportunities for them. And, and that's exciting because it's, again, low code, no code, and even AgilePoint. We are nothing more than a tool to support businesses. And, if you see that clients are starting to thinking outside their own box from a business point of view, that's really inspiring. That's why we are doing this for you as we really want to help clients not only solve, solve the issues today, but you want to help them. Taking the next step is becoming a different company tomorrow or the day after.

Sharjeel (36:02):

That's really inspiring to listen to. And, I like the message you are giving that it's not just for today, but also for the tomorrow. Anything you'd like to add has for people sitting on the fence with kind of trying out new things in low code, no code. And then we could, you know, wrap up our session for today. I know you have other engagements as well that you're really busy.

Hans (36:35):

No, I want to thank you for the opportunity. And, and the only message I can give to the people is look at your site. What do you need? What do you want to achieve? Think outside the box. Go beyond what you're doing today and use that as a minimum to do the discovery of a solution which could fit your needs. And make sure that you have a solution again, which is solving your future issues.

Sharjeel (37:04):

That's great. Thank you, Hans. It was really nice talking to you and getting some insights from you. It was a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.

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