Summary

• Sam Sibley is the Global Head, PMI Citizen Developer & Interim Head of Disciplined Agile business at the Project Management Institute (PMI).
• Project Management Institute is the world's leading for-purpose professional membership organization for the project, program, and portfolio management profession.  Founded in 1969, PMI delivers value for more than 2.9 million professionals working in nearly every country in the world through global advocacy, collaboration, education, and research.
• Our guest Sam used to play professional tennis, and this gave him a competitive edge that he uses to help startups and PMI. He reveals (i) why PMI has ventured into Citizen Development, (ii) the research study that PMI undertook to understand the market needs around Citizen Development, and (iii) how his organization is assisting medium and large corporations in adopting best practices for Citizen Development. He goes into detail on the process of establishing Citizen Development programs, including:
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  • Suitability Assessment
  • Risk Management
  • Governance
  
  
• Sam mentions success stories of Shell, Schneider Electric, and the Salvation Army. He thinks that Citizen Development will become more popular, and PMI provides the necessary tools, methodologies, and courses to help technology and project leaders add it to their digital transformation projects. ‍

Key Takeaways

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Transcript

Sam Sibley's Introduction

Sam (00:00):

The majority of citizen developer programs, or let me say, programs that leverage low-code and no-code technology. The reason why they fail is because there hasn't been the right suitability assessment before the work was carried out. And what I mean by that is that if you just passed any project or any idea or, or let any citizen developer build anything, there's going to be problems. Of course, it's going to be chaos, right?

You're not going to; it is going to be uncontrollable chaos because it's never going to get out. It's never going to work, right? Yeah. So it's important that you need to carry out a suitability assessment. And that links back to what I was mentioning about Shell and their Zonal model and their governance structure.

And so this suitability concept is something that p m I really has got behind. And in the practitioner course that we have, which was our second course that we released, we actually provide folks with a downloadable suitability assessment that they can use when they start coming up with an idea to determine is it the right project for citizen development.

Sharjeel (01:07):

I'm very excited to welcome Sam Sibley in today's episode. Sam is the Global head PMI Citizen Developer Program at the Project Management Institute. He leads the global citizen developer and Disciplined Agile businesses for PMI and is part of PMI’s Global Leadership team. So, Sam, could you please give a brief introduction and where do you come from?

Sam (01:29):

Absolutely. Thank you Sharjeel, and thanks for having me on this, on this latest episode. As, as you rightly mentioned, my name's Sam Sibley, and I've worked for PMI for roughly about 18 months or so. I'm based in London, which for those of you that aren't in London, is extremely cold at the moment.

And very, very grey, but from a, from a young age I was always very entrepreneurial, right? I mean, I, I've always been interested in technology, spent most of my career so far working for tech companies in re roles such as sales alliances, partnerships, but moved into more commercial kind of leadership roles. But interestingly, very early on in my career, I actually started working with a company called Xceptor. And Xceptor was recently been acquired actually but it is a leading data automation company.

Sam (02:15):

And primarily we were focused on the financial services market, but it was really around data automation and leveraging no-code infrastructure to be able to automate pretty core operating model processes within banks and energy organizations. So what's quite interesting for me is without really knowing or without planning this, I've really kind of done full circle. My beginning was at a no-code vendor. And here I am now at PMI leading the PMI citizen developer practice. So, you know, really excited to be part of this, part of this movement and, and kind of helping shape that.

Sharjeel (02:49):

That's awesome. This gives you a pretty rich background in the space that you are for which you are leading the PMI business. That's right. So I know you have an interest in tennis and tech investments. So is there anything you can share about your interest in the sport and, and tech investments in general?

Sam (03:08):

Yeah, so I, back when I was in my teams, I played professional tennis. I actually ended up, cause I wasn't quite good enough to make it. So I ended up coaching you know, quite a high standard of junior development players in the United Kingdom. So I really kind of enjoyed that. Tennis was a great way, I've always been very competitive. Mm-Hmm. It was always a great way for me to kind of drive that and get that com you know, competitive edge out.

But what's interesting for me, Sharjeel, is that, you know, tennis is all about strategy. It's all about thinking ahead. It's all about anticipating opponents. It's about being resilient. And I think, you know, if you think about the world that we are in, all of these areas are really transferrable to business. So, you know, although my days of playing high level tennis are very, very much over <laugh> some of my best ideas that I have and some of the best decisions that I've made in business have actually come from playing tennis on a tennis court, which is quite strange, right?

Sam (04:02):

So tennis has been a really core part of my life ever since I was quite young, from a 10 tech investment perspective. You know, what I really, really like is there's a lot of really good technology out there that often gets overlooked, right? Because some of the larger players who are more recognized seem, you know, are in a very dominant position to be able to take market share. So I have a big passion in helping and supporting early stage startups really get ready for scale, get ready for investment.

Particularly recently I've been quite interested in technology, the helps with the energy transition to net zero. So a lot of the energy tech platforms out there to helping kind of operationalize and optimize the way in which we, we work in that industry. I'm, I'm kind of heavily invested in, in that kind of space. So yeah, big passion in the, in the tennis and tech investment world.

Sharjeel (04:51):

That's awesome. And, and what you what you said about tennis is generally associated with a game or a sport like chess. And that was like kind of surprising to me when you say tennis is all about strategy. Yeah. But that makes sense.

I know you have been you've led the PMI citizen development business, and could you tell me something about the PMI Citizen Development program and the whole initiative and any specific ways that the organization is taking you know is, is kind of benefiting the overall business community?

Sam (05:33):

Absolutely. Yeah. So, so I get this question asked a lot, right? Why, why is the project management institute playing in the citizen developer space? And I've, I've spoken you know, quite a lot about this. People always talk about people, process and technology. I'm sure you know, Sharjeel, I'm sure you've had people coming onto these kinds of podcasts and we talk about people, process and technology.

Sam (05:55):

We have the tech. So the thing that we need to understand, right, is we have the technology at our fingertips. Technology is now more accessible than it ever has been before. We also have the people, right?

We have the people and the communities who are able to leverage technology. The challenge over the last couple of years has been that we didn't have the right processes, the right best practices to allow citizen development to scale. And that has really been where P M I has come in.

A bit of background on this is that a, a few years back, we, we did quite a comprehensive research study. We interviewed about a thousand people across industry, across, you know, transformation leadership positions, it across professors of innovation in major universities around the world. And there was a couple of things that really came out.

Sam (06:40):

And this research study was all about citizen development. And was citizen development a movement that was here to stay? Or was it going to be something that was going to be replaced by something more interesting tomorrow? Yeah. And the overwhelming response from those folks in that research study was that there were two major gaps when it came to enterprise citizen development at scale.

The first one was there was a real lack of industry standards. So people were adopting, technology was there, people were there, but the processes and the benchmark around the standards were not there. And it wasn't commonplace. So no one knew what good look like, number one. Number two was that you needed to have the right level of agnostic training. So I'm not talking about training from, from a technology point of view, but agnostic training to teach about the process. And that didn't exist.

PMI Citizen Development Program

Sam (07:27):

So for organizations who were really looking to adopt this and try to scale this outside of a silo in one area, they were really missing that enterprise agnostic training and education program. So this is what we created, right? We created the, the P M I citizen developer business, and the, the business is underlined by what we call a citizen developer canvas and a five stage maturity model.

That maturity model starts discovery, and it moves through to experimentation, adoption, scaling, and innovating. And the reality is, you could really draw a circle around those first two stages. And this is where the majority of organizations worldwide are in, right? They're a discovery or an experimentation stage. Yeah. And the reality is it's easy to find tech, it's actually really easy to identify a simple use case where maybe you could take paper out, right? And you could automate a process that's pretty simple.

Sam (08:21):

Yeah. Well, we've been doing that for years now. There's a lot of science pet projects out there, which are, you know, individuals or small teams that have identified an opportunity, but that's just dotted around in silos, you know, pockets of innovation across businesses. But actually, you know, moving outside of this hypothetical circle that I'm illustrating is actually harder. And it requires a level of understanding and, and best practice in around things like governance. You know, the things like risk. As you start moving outside of that circle and you start to scale and adopt this more broadly, you've got to understand about who's accountable for that, right? Who's going to manage that risk? How are, are you actually measuring the value that's being created from these applications? You know, what is the, what is the right level of operating model that we need for this business to be able to be successful?

Things like the fusion between business and IT, which is a common debate and a common topic that people speak about it is, this is a really big part of the role that PMI plays and, and we teach that through our online agnostic training and, and education and certification program.

Sharjeel (09:20):

Yeah. I, I think this, this reminds me of one of the terms that I think Gartner introduced was fusion teams, but where I was trying to get my head around while reading all of that, or kind of hearing that from our customers is, okay, how does someone you know, kind of actualize these fusion teams?

Because it's, it's easier to say in, in, in theory or in kind of propagation, but it's difficult in implementation. And I guess that's where p I also kind of this, this whole movement and business and program that PMI lets you do that and tries to kind of educate and train you, you know, how to make fusion teams

Sam (10:03):

Absolutely, and the key thing here is that, and let's be really clear, you know, PMI is not going to solve every problem and, and create the fusion team, you know, operating model.

But an organization needs to be successful. PMI is an extremely important component to allow, you know, that gives you the frameworks, the ways of thinking, the types of assets that you need to embark on that journey.

But there are cultural and organizational shifts and things that need to happen in an organization that p m I can support. But, you know, it's in important to understand here that as can technology organizations that, you know, the, the, the, the thriving low-code, no-code technology movement that, you know, agile point are really kind of getting behind and leading, are also important evangelists to help organizations understand this structural change, right?

So I think it's important to understand that there is not a single organization out there that will solve every single challenge and answer every single question. But a collective, the collective work that's being, you know, done is really helping organizations understand and be able to see that big picture of, of where teams can kind of operate in, in harmony.

Sharjeel (11:10):

I think that's where PMI has taken the baton and leading <laugh> ahead of others. That's what I mean. So let me bring in something that I've kind of come across. I even had some guests on the podcast who, who I would, if I have to give a meta kind of title to their narrative or their point of view is that there's a pushback as well from some kind of analysts and, and some credible you know, subject matter experts around citizen development. I call it a pushback. So some analysts and techs, I would say, criticize citizen development paradigm to be non-sustainable. And they say it's like packaging old wine in new bottle. So what's your take on.

Citizen Development Success Stories & Rebutting the Pushback

Sam (11:57):

That? Okay. So I think, you know, the first thing is I've, I've got three core areas and maybe, you know, we can talk about the sustainability part and the old wine and a new bottle after. But for me, the three core areas are, number one, organizations still think that they're too complex to be able to move in this direction. They think this is, you know, a magic wand. And it's, it's, you know, the tip of the iceberg in terms of innovation. And their organizations are too complex, and the structure of those businesses are too complex for this to thrive. And that's entirely wrong. Everyone has to start somewhere. And actually, some of the largest companies in the world who are most scrutinized and in the most regulated markets are adopting this in a big way. So, you know, one example of that is Shell Global.

Sam (12:45):

So shell have created a federated and, and kind of model layer and scaled its citizen development strategy to more than 4,000 employees across the globe. And they've done that through a couple of ways. They've introduced a zoned governance model, which is really a, a, a zone or model that's introduced to determine the right levels or the right suitability for a citizen developer program. When does the business and it have to work together, you know, the role of the project management community to be able to support it.

So it's really that that guiding kind of blueprint that allows people to understand the journey that one needs to go on in order to be able to actually start innovating. What they've also done is they've also cultivated this kind of local community concept, okay? So this is really, really critical that you can create, as I mentioned, these blueprints and, and ways of working, but it's about local communities who actually can start adopting this in their areas, right?

Sam (13:38):

And that's really where that kind of hub and spoke model is, that kind of center of excellence and communities leveraging that kind of COE capability is, is something that she has done really well, but it's also committed leadership. So, you know, it's important to understand that there are still many organizations and leaders in organizations that perceive their businesses to be too complex, and that that leadership and support isn't there.

And the reality is, you've got to look at it in two ways. You could either say, okay, well, I'm not going to do it, or How do you fight and actually build the right level of business case to justify why this needs to be something on an executive's radar? Why is going to move the needle and really be part of a, a major, you know major program and deliver that value. So that's the first thing, right?

Sam (14:17):

I think it's really important that people understand that, that it's happening and major organizations are doing that who are in kind of complex situations, highly regulated markets. The second is that it introduces too much risk. There is a perception in the market still, but it introduces too much risk.

And I think the, the simple answer to that is that the risk reward isn't, isn't fully understood. And what I like to bring this back to when I speak to executives is that the majority of citizen developer programs, or let me say programs that leverage low-code and no-code technology the reason why they fail is because there hasn't been the right suitability assessment before the work was carried out.

And what I mean by that is that if you are, if you just pass any project or any idea or, or let any citizen developer build anything, there's going to be problems.

Sam (15:05):

Of course, it's going to be chaos, right? You're not going to, it's going to be uncontrollable chaos because it's never going to get out. It's never going to work, right? Yeah. So it's important that you need to carry out a, a, a suitability assessment.

And that links back to what I was mentioning about Shell and their zonal model and their governance structure. And so this suitability concept is something that p m I really has got behind, and in the practitioner course that we have, which was our second course that we released, we actually provide folks with a downloadable suitability assessment that they can use when they start coming up with an idea to determine is it the right project for citizen development.

So that's the second thing that, that I think is important to, to note. Right. And look, the, the third Sharjeel, and we, you know, we, we hear this all the time is that it aren't comfortable.

Sam (15:45):

There's this kind of tension dynamic where IT aren't comfortable with giving the keys to the kingdom and allowing the business to be able to do all of this kind of stuff is going to be chaos again. So what I like to say here is, it's not about them versus us, it's not about the business versus IT, it's actually about both of these worlds coming together and appreciating that things need to be done differently to achieve success.

And an overburdened IT team with not enough staff.

We hear this all the time. Capacity is an issue, and it's more of an issue now than it's ever been before. There's a never growing backlog, and that helps no one. So actually democratizing development and, you know, and, and doing that in the right way, putting the right protocols in place is really a recipe for a more successful and sustainable innovation culture.

Sam (16:34):

And that's a joint venture between the IT group and the wider organization. Right. And, you know, one thing that I came across a little while back through some conversations I was having was Schneider Electric's approach to citizen development. And actually what was quite interesting is their approach actually begins with the company's professional development team.

And what I mean by that before a technology is made available to a citizen developer or a community of citizen developers, the professional development team actually audit and check that technology, understand it, they master it, they understand all of the parts around integrations capabilities, the roadmap, the product itself before they actually pass that baton and allow others to consume and leverage that which to one side, you know, it's an interesting, it's an interesting point.

But at the same time, you don't want to stifle innovation on the frontline and putting too many roadblocks and barriers that impede this kind of innovative mindset from the business, right? So I think it's that, it's that dynamic of the, the business and it coming together, having those guardrails and those kind of guiding principles and understanding in place and starting small and, and learning together, right? It's a togetherness that's important about this.

Sharjeel (17:45):

Yeah. I think that's, that's explained in a pretty comprehensive manner. And I'd even take, take out this sound bite and send to someone who <laugh>, who I think is pretty much you know, skeptical about this whole movement.

But I think, I think you've covered all bases and talking about risk. I mean I mean, even not handling your passwords in a, in a, in a good manner is also a risk. So talk about risk and risk is every everywhere. Yeah. But that's, that's good. And just kind of digging out more into this issue of the pushback.

I know maybe that's more coming from, from people who are at the operational end of the things, and they argue that most LCNC tools were traditionally used by professional developers and process experts. And they also point out that citizen developers like the idea that citizen developers are developing apps and, and they're used by you know, a lot of people is flawed because they have a lack of expertise, or like, they can't even think about the data the way a developer, professional developer does, like curing data workflow scenarios, like other parallel activities sort of things, maintenance, scaling apps, data concerns.

Sharjeel (19:02):

But I think that's where the, this is a pretty operational concern. And the way I what I heard from you is that you kind of solve this problem at a strategic level by first, you know, kind of, you know, checking the suitability of the organization and then, you know, suitability of the platform versus the use case that someone is coming up with in organization. So I think, I think we are getting there and this, this pushback will, I guess, get resolved sooner as.

Sam

Yeah, absolutely. Sorry to jump in there, but I think, I think yes, but at the same time, you know, just one thing I just want to make sure is very clear here is that the suitability of the use case and the idea is really quite critical as well, right? Because as, as I, as I mentioned before, is that the, the challenge is, is that if someone has an idea and wants to build something, leveraging a low-code or a no-code platform, if the level of risk and the technology complexity is, is high, then I would argue that there are going to be significant challenges and potentially risks that that individual is going to come across that is not going to be productive for the organization. Okay. So understanding, and again, I'm linking this back to what, what I've spoken about with, with Shell and their kind of zonal governance model is that that gives people the pathway.

Suitability Assessment of Citizen Development Use Cases

Sam (20:26):

So if I'm, you know, if I'm someone that's got an app, and actually the app is pretty, you know, it's pretty simple to create. There's not going to be a ton of, you know, APIs connected in and there's not going to be a ton of data exposed to third parties. And, and actually it's going to be a pretty simple thing, and the level of consumers are going to be pretty minimal.

Maybe they're internal stakeholders as opposed to customers or partners, but it's not, not business critical, but it's going to take some paper out and it's going to save, you know, save a sometime. Then I would argue that's probably an accelerated pathway for a citizen development, low risk, low tech complexity. Mm-Hmm. So if you get to that kind of middle level of medium to high risk, medium to high tech complexity, there's going to be different pathways. And that's inevitable because you're going to have to have a different structure.

Sam (21:06):

You're going to have to think about data, privacy, security, you know, local regulation. You're going to have to, you know, have to think about that, right? So that's what I'm talking about when it comes to the use case and the pathway. Most, most, you know, organizations just haven't done that.

And it's, and it's critical that you've built that from the ground up that's going to make it, and the executive team feel very comfortable. Right. And our agile point, you know, for, for you guys you've been working with, with us to try and kind of really create that, and, and if you look at your major customers, you know, by putting that blueprint in place, all it's doing is actually supporting them, get more value out of the program and get more value out of the technology, right? Yeah. So you actually, you mitigate risk and you drive innovation, which is what this whole kind of movement is all about, right? So I think that's really important.

Sharjeel (21:47):

That's why we encourage for any given customer, we encourage their kind of IT department and leadership people and leadership team to come on board early on in the process rather than, you know, kind of pushing it there down there. So, you know, but we, we can make sure that they are on board because we know we, yeah, we can handle their concerns and that's what they like about it. I think that you're right. Yeah.

Sam (22:14):

Okay. So, and you mentioned something earlier, you, you mentioned something earlier, because  I think I moved the conversation slightly to a different era, but you mentioned about the pushback and that there were three things.

There were, you know, it wasn't a sustainable option. You know, you talked about how we measure value and the old versus new wine, and it's just being packaged in a new, in a new bottle. And let, just, let me just take a moment to talk about that, right? So No worries. So the, the first, the first part is that the, the idea citizen development is not a sustainable option, is entirely flawed.

Let's just, let's just, let's just be really clear on this, the whole reason why this right now, where we are 2022, moving into 2023, this is the age of the citizen developer, and it's because the existing way that we develop software and we innovate across the globe is not sustainable, right?

Sam (23:01):

F you know, 500 million apps and we hear these stats all the time. 500 million apps that need to be built in the next year or so, right? Hmm. Only about half of these apps can be built solely by professional developers. So the requirement for democratization is due to this major supply and demand challenge that all industries are faced with. So in my view, the, the compelling event has been a couple of things.

It's really been market competition and the age of the informed customer. You know, if we look at the cu, if we look at the market right now across all industries, customers expect new, easier ways of engaging and buying. They expect convenience. And what this means is that more companies are having to adapt and leverage technology to move out of their comfort zone to build, you know, and provide that new competitive advantage.

Sam (23:45):

And, you know, a great, a great example is the great work that you know, you guys are doing and, and you know, you've got this on your website and I've, I've, I've got to learn a bit about this, this example, but it's with the Salvation Army, you know, the Salvation Army doubled the number of applications developed with the same budget.

Now, if you just think about that for a second, right? Going back to my supply and demand challenge that we're faced with, we haven't got enough developers, we've got too many apps, and we can't build them. That in itself with the Salvation Army is an example. How technology can actually help address this supply and demand challenge through leveraging citizen development and that democratization. Okay? Yeah. So I think that's the, that's the first thing around sustainability that I just entirely disagree with when people talk about it.

Sam (24:24):

And actually it just demonstrates their lack of understanding about the topic. But importantly, the, the concept, you know, and your second thing that you raised was around value and value stream is actually really critical. And what I see in the market is that the, this is the difference between an idea stalling as a science project, and I use a science project term a lot.

And those that are in kind of, you know, sales will understand the concept of science projects and people kicking tires. But the difference between a science project to actually a new citizen developer culture, you know, a new movement being adopted widely across a business is the fact that you need to be able to quantify and measure value at this each stage. And, and what I see, and I'd be interested to get your view on this is that people talk about apps all the time.

Sam (25:06):

You know, you mentioned this before, people talk about apps all the time, and you know, it's about building the app. It's about putting the, you know, the power in the hands of the, of, of the business to be able to build stuff and working with it. But actually, if you think about it, it's a mindset change. It's a change in the way in which it's, it's a cultural shift. It's a way in which we are moving to a new position of productivity, of collaboration, right?

Yeah. And in order to move the needle, executives need to see the opportunity. So actually mapping the value from the beginning is really important. And a good, good friend of mine Michael McCullough, who a lot of you will probably be aware of and seen on social, and, you know, he's really evangelizing this space, but you know, what he's done at Amtrak has been, has been phenomenal because he's been really, really good at mapping the value very early on to get executives on board to be able to scale citizen developer across multiple departments in quite a complex organizations, right?

So getting that support has been done because he was able to quantify that value. Okay. So I think that that value stream is really important. I mean, how, how, what, what are your thoughts on that? Do you, do you agree with that sentiment?

Sharjeel (26:05):

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Cause because that's, that's a very critical point that you bring in. And I think since it's a, it's a point that, that that's not as you know, it's not measured in, in a, in a very numerical way, that's why it gets ignored. But collaboration, I mean, that's the key, you know, bringing two parties under one table under, under one roof, sorry.

And having them make something you know, better for the organization. That's, that's so crucial. And I think the teams that have won and are, are winning, kind of bringing new solutions and, and automations to the market are the ones who, who, who are kind of eliminating these traditional silos.

I'm reminded of a, of a, of a conversation I had with someone, and they were saying that a lot of new talent is not willing to join the older companies or, or the bigger companies who are used to, of working the way the work has been done, you know, traditionally is that they're not willing to kind of be part of that, you know, old organizational culture where they don't have empowerment, where they don't have the visibility into other departments.

Sharjeel (27:18):

So I think that's a very crucial point. And, and I think that's, that's a very key point here. Exactly. And, and, and, and your comment on packaging old wine in the new bottle,

Sam (27:32):

I always find that interesting. You know, it's such a funny when people talk about it and, and look, I kind of get it right and, and it makes me laugh. And those that, you know, been in the tech spaces that often things are repackaged and, you know, but let's, let's be really, let, let, let's, let's look at this, right?

Is that the concept of DIY, the concept of self-service, whether that's, you know, whatever the industry, whether that's around infrastructure data, you know, this, this has been around for a long time, okay? So when people say, oh, you know, and you see on LinkedIn, people post about it and go, well, you know, this community of citizen developers, it's, it's kind of been here and it's not working. It's like, well guys, just think about it. The concept of low-code or no-code platforms has existed.

Sam (28:08):

Yeah. What is the difference? The difference right now is there is a compelling event and a need to democratize the way we develop. Yeah. The way we develop, the way we innovate. Okay. So it's the fact that technology has made it so easy to be able to move in this direction.

Technology has become the enabler, and the enabler has then allowed new consumer groups across all industries in both IT and the business to be able to leverage that. So it's really, you know, so the old versus new wine, it was like, well, actually, if you really think about it, it's, yes, you've got a, you, you've, you've got a concept that's been around for a long time, but the application and the opportunity and the timing of that op, you know, is, is is where we are today, right? Yeah. That, that, I mean, that's my, that's the best answer that I can give people that kind of, that talk around that.

Sharjeel (28:51):

Agree, agree. And, and I think there, there are two points that popped into into my mind while you were talking about you know, one thing was salvation Army, and I remember you, you were right that, you know, you dub the doubled the number of apps while, while, while the headcounts, you know, remained the same. And there was a, there was 180 degree you know, opposite example as well.

And I think you might Jesse might have shared that with you or not, but we, we have a fortune 500 customer who, who had the need to kind of migrate to, to to the cloud. And they're there to modernize their apps. And what they did was from 8,000, from the original 8,000 apps, they kind of, you know migrated and transitioned and rationalize the application count to 2000, which is like, like again, a story that's usually not you know we, we haven't heard a lot about this angle of this story that you could even reduce your apps as well, that the ones that you use to build that are, that, that we use to call application sprawl.

Sharjeel (29:57):

So I think that it's, it's a very unique combination of, okay, wherever you need more apps, you can have more without increasing the number of people, you know, developing those. And wherever you need to rationalize your app count, you can do the same, you know, you can do that as well..

So yeah. That's, that's a very interesting point. And I guess that's, that's the he take away from, from this part. Yeah. And, and, and I think Sam whoever is kind of resisting this movement is not doing a, is doing a disservice to the, to it as well. Cause, you know, you might have come across where it likes to develop, you know, professional developers like to develop certain type of apps, you know, and they're not very open and very responsive towards, you know, every request that they get in their application backlog.

Sam (30:48):

Exactly.

Sharjeel (30:49):

Yeah. And, and, and we, we'd be doing a disservice to their time and to their energy and their commitment and to their own professional development that we keep them busy into things that they are, they might not be very, very interested in developing <laugh> at the first place. Yeah,

Sam (31:04):

Totally. It's, it's almost like a, it's like a support mechanism. So if you think about it, you've got, as you've rightly just pointed out, right? You've, you've got an IT team who are absolutely, you know, and let's be really clear, we're not, we're not talking about removing the need for traditional IT development. Yeah.

Right? The, the requirement for very, very smart professional developers in, in enterprise is critical. And you're right. You know, they will be building highly complex business critical applications that keep the business moving, right? And that's, and that's important. But as we look at that backlog, you are right.

The more, the more demand that comes from customers, as I, as I mentioned earlier, you know, customers are now more informed, they're more demanding, they're expecting more. So there's a level of expectation there. Yeah. And what we're doing is we're adding more to that backlog.

Sam (31:53):

So the, the smarter that we can be to put in place the right support mechanisms to allow the, you know, the professional folks to be able to focus on the bits that they need to focus on, but actually for them to be able to partner, right? In that kind of joint venture way of working with the business, you actually, you're getting more done. You're moving the needle because you're come becoming a more innovative company.

Yeah. And I would argue that, that the IT folks that have actually embraced this Oh, happier. Yeah. Cause they're seeing that they're actually able to con, you know, they've never been able to get the backlog off their plate, but actually by new these new vehicles, they're able to do it. Right. So I think when you really un unravel the onion and you really start to, you know, you ask the question, when you have someone come and say it's not good for it.

And then you ask them why, and they give you an answer, and then you ask them why two or three times you actually get to the root part of this agree, which actually citizen developer can help address <laugh>. Yeah.

Sharjeel (32:45):

You know, agree. Yeah, no, that's, that's a perfect analogy. You know, peel and you come to know that what's the core issue out there? Exactly. Okay. I, I'm reminded of a recent summit PMI Global Summit that, that, that took place a few days ago. So I really heard, so just to share p Agile point, was there too Agile Point team? And we had a lot of good news and you know, from the summit coming out, we had, you know, a lot of good videos, photos. So talk to me about that. You know, the PMI summit that took place at Caesar's Palace Las Las Vegas.

PMI Global Summit and AgilePoint-PMI Partnership

Sam (33:22):

Yeah, no, absolutely. So, well, first of all, look, I was, I was honestly delighted to see Agile Point as one of the main sponsors for the, for the global event. You know, that was, that was really, that May, that was, you know, a, a big highlight for me, right?

Because, you know, the conversations that I first had with, with Jesse a while ago, seeing that kind of come to fruition and seeing the Agile Point logo on the, you know, you know, really, really main stage was, was, was important, right? That was a big win for everyone. But there are a couple of, a couple of highlights that came out of it for, for the teams, right? The first one was Amtrak's presentation. You know, I mentioned Michael McCullough before am Michael did a great job. And what do, what do you kind of spoke about was really the application of citizen development.

Sam (34:00):

I talk about this a lot where there is so much marketing jargon and noise about citizen development and about low-code and no-code technology, and that's fine. But actually, you know, it still comes across like it's a magic. Oh, okay, I'm in marketing and I'm, I'm a, I'm a finance analyst. Suddenly I can be able to build everything and I can be a developer and I can, well, it's like, well, actually, you know, there, there is a process about how you go about doing it. Okay? What are some of the things you've got to put in place? So an Amtrak story, Michael's story, Amtrak is a fascinating one, right? Because it starts off with, you know, a very challenging environment where it's pretty difficult to, to get things done and really to kind of move the needle when it comes to this. But actually the work that's been done by Michael and the leadership team there is phenomenal, right?

Sam (34:42):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So that story, I've had a lot of project managers and PMO leaders and community members of PMI Reach, reach out to, to thank PMI for providing that real life example, right? Because it's real life examples that bring things to life. That's the first thing. The second highlight for me was the ideation 2.0 session that, that Jesse was part of, along of a couple of other our, of our partners. And, and the key take away from that was that being able to visualize what is possible and how quickly the benefits of citizen developer can be realized.

And I think for people in the audience attendees of the event, when they saw that it was that kind of aha moment, it was that light bulb moment where they went, ah, I get it. I get it. I see what I can actually do and how I can make an impact with this. So, you know, I think that that would be it was a phenomenal event. I mean, the guys, the guys at PMI the events function did a really, really grand job. And I'm, I'm excited for Atlanta 2023 and, and hopefully we we get to share about your point again.

Sharjeel (35:39):

Yeah, <laugh>. Sure. And, and, and just to share with you we, we were discussing this internally. We, we love being part of the event and really had a very fruitful kind of conversations over there and the type of conversations you expect to have a, have at a very good event. So that was really awesome for our team, and we, we look forward to being part of it again as well. So Sam, could you kind of, you know, tell me the backstory of BMI's partnership with Agile Point, and how do you see it?

Sam (36:12):

Yeah, so I just think about this. So I, I first met Jesse I think it was in Mountain View, just around the corner from, from Agile points, us west coast office. And we had, we had lunch, and it was, it was great. And, you know, for those that don't know, Jesse is Agile points Chief Executive Officer. And his energy was infectious. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm a high energy type of guy, right?

And I think that, yeah, that Jesse's energy was infectious, and I knew from the moment that I met, met him that we would have a, a rewarding partnership together, right? Because we both address very, you know, important areas of the market and, and, and the support that we can bring organizations. But, so that was great. That's how it all kind of all started. And I was thrilled when, you know, we will, we launched our Global Partner program and, and Agile Point, were one of our first goal partners on that program, which was a, you know, a credit and a really testament to the, the Agile Point team and the dedication that they've shown to our, our partnership.

Sam (37:06):

But what I'm, what I'm really interested in right now is working with Agile Point as a goal partner to really define the suitable pathways for enterprises to unlock citizen development communities. So potentially, you know, customers and organizations who have leveraged technology from an IT perspective that are looking at how they can outsource and mobilize these support mechanisms that I mentioned and, and unlock opportunities with, with, with the business through citizen development, right? So I think the, the unique opportunity that P m I has with Agile Point, to be able to define those pathways and blueprints, I think is going to be really critical.

So 2023 is really going to be realizing that value and bringing, and, and, and it's going to be the age of the citizen developer for our partnership. But, you know, for folks listening here that maybe aren't familiar with, with Agile Point is that Agile Point souls, you know, highly complex challenges, and it's built to be enter enterprise ready.

Sam (38:00):

You know, too many people think that a low-code, no-code vendor are building really simple apps. Well, the, the reality is there are a lot of simple apps that are built and actually a lot of value from that. But there are highly complex applications that are being built on the Agile Point platform through Fusion teams and operating models with the business. And it, and if you think about it, the need for larger organizations to have the right level of training and standard is really critical.

So the partnership between Agile Point and PMI moving into 2023 is really going to be paramount. It's really going to be pretty critical, right, for unlocking this success. So, I, I've personally, you know, I've got, had a lot of investment in, in this partnership, and I'm, I'm delighted where we are, and I'm looking forward to the future.

Sharjeel (38:40):

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, and we, we've been part of this, this partnership and journey. And in fact, I personally really appreciate and love kind of, I, I've seen this blooming and, and it has sped off for, for the larger community. We, we, we have j just to share with the folks. We have regular webinars with PMI. And the quality of questions that come we get to answer in those webinars and in those, in those sessions is, is awesome. And we kind of learn since there are other vendors as well. So we, we learn a lot from that participation as well. So just to you know, conclude our discussion, Sam I think that I've learned a lot.

I think I'm more armed to kind of, you know, talk to the city skeptics or citizen development skeptics, <laugh>, having talked to you, <laugh>, and, and, and, and so what's your parting thought? Like, parting thought for both? Who wants to jump on the wagon and, and, and it's not a fad, it's, it's, it's there and enterprises have adopted it in the way that it needs to be done. And so what's your message for the skeptics out there and others who want to, you know, adopt it.

Sam (39:48):

So I think the first thing is, is that we need to look at this as a, it's a rollercoaster and not a bandwagon, right? It's a, we need to this is a journey. It's a journey, and it's a really, really fun journey, right? And I think that the reality is this is happening. You know, if I go back, go back two, two or three years to when this kind of was, you know, really kind of started to take off, but early stages, right? It was really not many stories. Not many stories about bringing things to life. So it, there's lots of marketing talk and, and you know, a really good narrative around the benefits and supply and demand and some of the things I've illustrated today. But it's happening more and more case studies are being published, which is only going to help motivate, guide, and support others to be able to jump on this kind of rollercoaster that I'm talking about.

Sam (40:33):

And, you know, I, I recently had the opportunity to interview Paul Kobylanski, the leader of the citizen developer business Shell Global. And I spent some time interviewing and kind of documenting their, their journey in their DIY business. And it was, it was a phenomenal story.

And the, the power of that story, the other executives, leaders and, and, and also people in the business that are, they've got their areas of expertise that actually see this and take inspiration from these stories is what it's all about. This is, this is about a community, right? Citizen developer is about a community. And, and for those that wanna see that, that that's available through PMI Social Media and website. So that's the first thing. Stories, right? There are a lot of stories out there that people can take inspiration from and learn from.

Sam (41:20):

The second is, is, and I think I've, you know, I, I've, I've alluded to this earlier on in the, in the conversation, is that, you know, I really do believe that PMI is playing a really critical role in this. And, and the main role is to take risk off the table, right? So yeah, taking risk off the table and being able to understand that level of risk reward and, and manage that is, is important. So I would definitely encourage folks to check out the, the PMI set and developer website that has information about training and best practices and also our canvas that I, that I mentioned. But look, you know, with the Project Management Institute, everything that we do is all about powering projects, the project economy, okay? So it would be wrong that I wouldn't tie this back to how we, how we best serve the, the project management folks out there who are playing a really critical part of this program, right?

Sam (42:05):

Of this, of this movement. And I always talk about it in the, there are kind of two areas where every project, in my opinion in 2023, should at least be looking at citizen development as a vehicle for greater success, faster delivery, right? Driving down operational efficiency, driving down operational costs, doing more with less empowering people from a cultural point of view to be able to do more and actually own things, right? There's a, there's a huge amount of project benefit from a delivery perspective.

So it's important that project leaders, project managers, program managers, portfolio leaders, understand that this is available to them, right? So I think that's really important. But, but equally, you know, a very senior leader of a PMO function for a big enterprise said to me the other day that yes, you know, project leaders are important to be evangelists to really understand the value of this, to be able to mobilize the right environment and culture, citizen development to work.

Sam (42:57):

But not every project's going to be right for that number one, okay? But, but actually the more senior you are and the, the, the better you are at your job as a project leader, the more work ends up on your desk, okay? It happens everywhere.

The better you are, the more people give you, and what happens when you get more, you've got to get, you, you've got to find a way of being able to filter through a lot of noise and a lot of demand to really get stuff done. So this, this particular leader who manages a huge, huge PMO team and budget, so that actually what they've been able to do is, is use and leverage no-code technology to be able to automate some of the apps that they need for themselves. So actually to be, be a practitioner themselves, to be able to drive that kind of high business value and, and take paper out and automate to, to win some time back so they can focus on the other areas which have kind of fallen on their desk that they've got to prioritize and manage, right?

Sam (43:49):

So there's these kind of two worlds of being able to be an evangelist and understand the value, but also being able to understand that you can optimize and improve the way you work as a senior project leader by leveraging this, right? So that would be, that would be my, my kind of three main points that, that I think is important. But guys like everyone listening here, just don't be overwhelmed. It's often difficult or, or sorry, I say it's often very easy to feel overwhelmed by the, the, the narrative and the, the words that people use. And

I've probably, you know, done a lot of that today. But actually start with something small. I've said this from day one, start with something small. Define the right suitability for that. Use some technology that's available in the market, you know, at your point is fantastic. Lots of technologies that that is available. And it's easy to be able to embrace and map the value build alliances, right? Don't do this in isolation. And, and, and the, the, the better you do that, it then proliferates to be this really, really amazing way of, in innovating and, and building a new innovation mindset, right? So that would be my encouragement to everyone. No matter what size organization you are, no matter what your role is, you can do it.

Sharjeel (44:56):

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think the, these are the, you summed it pretty well, and especially tying it to the to the project management community. Cause in, at the end of the day, every, everything we do takes the shape and form of a project <laugh> and project leaders need to take the, take the pattern in their hands. And I think that that's awesome. I I, I'm just reminded that you mentioned that Jesse's, you know, kind of energy was infectious. I think I feel the same with you actually, <laugh>, had I been in, in your presence. I think <laugh> I think I would be yeah. So, so you bring a lot of energy to the table and I can feel that within our virtual, you know, kind of podcast as well, <laugh>, but great.

Sam (45:39):

Well, hopefully, hopefully we get a chance to hopefully we get a chance to do this in, in person at some point.

Sharjeel (45:43):

Definitely. Definitely. Exactly, exactly. So it was, it was a wonderful conversation and, and would love to collaborate more in the future when we have more time on your end. And that would be really helpful. Thank you, Sam, for, for your time. Absolutely. Yeah.

Sam (46:00):

Thank you. No problem at all. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

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